Tournament Changes

[Aelin]

TOURNAMENT CHANGES

There are currently nine tournaments spread from Monday through to Sunday, with two tournaments a day on the weekend; these being, Main Pk, Zerker, Pure Nh, Tribrid, Welfare, F2P, Pure, Dharoks, Hybrid. In this post I will highlight the overarching issue with tournaments in general, then proceed to provide suggestions to improve each individually. Additionally, at the end of the post, I will list some minor 'quality of life' suggestions.

PRIMARY ISSUE & SOLUTION

This section is based on the fundamental principle that, given that the tournament rewards yell tags claiming that the holder is the "#1" on the server in a certain PKing style, the tournaments should be won by skill (or, sometimes, RNG in the case of the Edge PKing tournaments).

ISSUE: The current banking system that provides gear for players is inherently flawed. This is because it allows for choice, and thus potential vast variation in set-ups. Potential for variation results in randomness and hence participants are able to gain an advantage over others unrelated to their respective skill levels, which violates the fundamental principle I stated previously.

SOLUTION: Upon entering the tournament through the portal at Home players are given a predefined gear set-up specifically designed for that tournament; the bank booth in the waiting area would be removed and replaced with an NPC to whom participants could talk in order to reload the tournament set-up (to allow for regearing and accidentally eating food/drinking potions). This would resolve the serious issue of participants being able to gain an advantage over others by, for example: bringing less gear switches to increase the amount of food in their inventory or bringing max magic bonus gear in hybrid with no switches and farcasting the whole fight. A more diverse version of this solution would be to have the previously mentioned NPC allow participants to choose from a number of predefined set-ups (this would allow for variation in spec weapon, for example).

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION: Brew and rocktail cap specific to each tournament... [EDITING]

INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT SUGGESTIONS

PURE NH

The image above shows my suggestion, based on OSRS, for the predefined set-up to be used in the Pure Nh tournament. As mentioned previously, an NPC could offer alternate set-ups; such as, one including blood runes, one without the two brews and one less sanfew and one which combined both of those (obviously, too many options may over-complicate things).

TRIBRID

Maximum four Saradomin brews used in this set-up to ensure fights do not go on for too long, given the tournament situation. Alternate set-up for vls.

HYBRID

In the case of the two hybrid tournaments, given that I am not overly experienced in the PKing style, the set-up shown is simply an example. 

WELFARE

As before.

DHAROKS

Max gear and only two Saradomin brews used here because, otherwise, fights can be much too slow, especially in a tournament scenario. Alternate set-up for vls.

MAIN PK

I am not convinced about the necessity of this tournament given dharok is also a form of main edge PKing and more interesting form, at that. I would suggest changing this tournament to something else; for example, void range, zerk hybrid, zerk nh, pure melee, etc. Alternatively, this tournament could remain (with set-up options for bandos, dharok, etc) and the dharok tournament could be replaced.

ZERKER

Alternate set-up for vls.

PURE

Given that there's a huge amount of variation in pure edge PKing, I would suggest it's best to choose to make this specifically either range or melee tournament and, then, using the NPC suggestion, add set-ups for AGS/gmaul and such like.

F2P

Make this an exclusively R2h tournament given that's most representative of F2P PKing. Alternate set-ups could replace the rune 2h with a rune battleaxe, for example, however, I'm not convinced that's necessary.

QUALITY OF LIFE SUGGESTIONS

I have a few quality of life suggestions, the latter two of which are minor and stem more from my own perfectionist tendencies than any objective legitimate issue.

1. Add a PKP reward for finishing in the top eight (currently, only the top four are rewarded), perhaps 25 times the number of players entered.

2. Change the tournament names to be more consistent and easier to interpret; I would suggest: Pure Nh, Max Nh, Max Hybrid, Welfare Hybrid, Dharok, Main, Zerker [Edge], Pure [Edge] and F2P [R2h]*. 

3. Change the barricades in the fight arena to more of the rope fencing which is used everywhere else in the tournaments (perfectionism :P).

*square brackets indicate a potential addition to make the name more specific.

Please leave suggestions & feedback, especially regarding the set-ups - if you are experienced in hybridding, for example, and see a problem, please post it!

[ADDING ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION BASED ON FEEDBACK THUS FAR]

Edited September 9, 2016 by Aelin

[MNB]

100% agree with this, Pure Nh Tourny is so shit atm, how are people using vls to gmaul combo's??

[Killbob]

But what about someone like me who don't use sara brews, then I would be down 2 food.

[Aelin]

24 minutes ago, Killbob said:

But what about someone like me who don't use sara brews, then I would be down 2 food.

Taking the new system to be the one I suggested with an NPC who would have multiple different predefined set-ups to choose from, you would be able to select a set-up which doesn't use brews. This would certainly disadvantage you, true, and would be next to impossible to balance bar removing brews from tournaments altogether - which I don't believe is representative of PKing. Additionally, I would stress that this is a relatively minor issue in comparison with the major one being solved by this system :).

Edited September 8, 2016 by Aelin

[Ahmash]

i disagree with this suggestion i like how it is atm more choice in items, the tournys fair for all players cos we have access to the same itams so u cant complain saying he used a different setup to urs and won, that jus proves ur either a shit pker or had a shit setup

the tourny isnt all based on rng it mostly require skill, chris has won over 10 tournys now cos hes the best pker on server thats not luck to win that many times

instead i think the bank setups shud be altered slightly like for example in the pure nh tourny knives and gmauls and all range weps except acb can be removed cos in 1 of them i made it to semi finals camping knives to acb and ags to gmaul for spec but this method dont work against top pure nhers so they've nowt to worry bout

ur suggestion wud require too many premade kits to be made for each tourny (more coding for Gretar lol), on mondays main tourny wen every1 was either in bandos or dharoks some genius used veracs and made it to semi final somehow and the same again in zerk tourny he camped an ob maul lol

[Aelin]

 

How do I delete this reply?

 

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Aelin

[Aelin]

9 hours ago, Ahmash said:

i disagree with this suggestion i like how it is atm more choice in items, the tournys fair for all players cos we have access to the same itams so u cant complain saying he used a different setup to urs and won, that jus proves ur either a shit pker or had a shit setup

 

 

 

The fact that the tournament is currently balanced given that all players have access to the same gear is a non-issue. That is an unrealistic statement because it is based on theory and what has been shown in practice is the tournament isn't fair for all players, despite everyone being able to access the same gear. Secondly, I - or anyone - can complain about people winning with a different set-up given the principle I stated in my post; in the tournaments, a "shit" set-up is one that is actually representative of what would be used in a normal PKing scenario, whereas a good set-up is one that maximises food count by minimising switches thus allowing you to outlast your opponent. Surely you can see how that is a flawed system.

9 hours ago, Ahmash said:

the tourny isnt all based on rng it mostly require skill, chris has won over 10 tournys now cos hes the best pker on server thats not luck to win that many times

I agree that it isn't luck given he's repeatedly won; however, winning because you are simply magnitudes better than everyone and consequently can even beat those abusing the system is not a foundation on which one should build a counter-argument. This is because such an argument is based on an extreme example and is, therefore, not representative of the rest of the participants in the tournament who may be good enough to make the top four consistently but not to beat the abusers (i.e. correct outcome =/= proper method).

9 hours ago, Ahmash said:

instead i think the bank setups shud be altered slightly like for example in the pure nh tourny knives and gmauls and all range weps except acb can be removed cos in 1 of them i made it to semi finals camping knives to acb and ags to gmaul for spec but this method dont work against top pure nhers so they've nowt to worry bout

 

I will respond to this bit initially ignoring that I've already pointed out the inherent flaw with the banking system as to give a specific example to demonstrate how this would still not work. Imagine a hypothetical scenario specific to the Pure Nh tournament, given you used it as an example yourself, in which all unrelated items were removed from the bank chest (though, I do agree someone in edge never would beat a good pure NHer). In such a scenario, while many problems have been solved, it does not fix the gearing system as a whole as it still allows for people to minimise switches and maximise food - the biggest issue of all regarding the current gearing system. On the other hand, in the system I suggested, this would not be an issue as there would be no way in which participants could increase their food count over others since they are forced to use a predefined set-up.

9 hours ago, Ahmash said:

ur suggestion wud require too many premade kits to be made for each tourny (more coding for Gretar lol), on mondays main tourny wen every1 was either in bandos or dharoks some genius used veracs and made it to semi final somehow and the same again in zerk tourny he camped an ob maul lol

 

My suggestion would require a minimum of nine custom kits to be created (one per tournament) and an NPC to replace the bank booth to whom participants could talk to, in the case of one kit per tournament, reload the set-up for that tournament after a fight. I appreciate this would require more coding, ultimately this is just a suggestion of what I believe an ideal tournament system would be, as a minimum I'd like to see the items in the bank booths be reduced. On a somewhat unrelated note, I still stand by that the Main tournament is rendered unnecessary by the Dharok one - especially given the majority of participants in it use dharok anyway. As for the last two seemingly random examples, those are again extreme cases and simply go to demonstrate that ultimately combat in this game is based on RNG.

[Ahmash]

31 minutes ago, Aelin said:

The fact that the tournament is currently balanced given that all players have access to the same gear is a non-issue. That is an unrealistic statement because it is based on theory and what has been shown in practice is the tournament isn't fair for all players, despite everyone being able to access the same gear. Secondly, I - or anyone - can complain about people winning with a different set-up given the principle I stated in my post; in the tournaments, a "shit" set-up is one that is actually representative of what would be used in a normal PKing scenario, whereas a good set-up is one that maximises food count by minimising switches thus allowing you to outlast your opponent. Surely you can see how that is a flawed system.

I agree that it isn't luck given he's repeatedly won; however, winning because you are simply magnitudes better than everyone and consequently can even beat those abusing the system is not a foundation on which one should build a counter-argument. This is because such an argument is based on an extreme example and is, therefore, not representative of the rest of the participants in the tournament who may be good enough to make the top four consistently but not to beat the abusers (i.e. correct outcome =/= proper method).

I will respond to this bit initially ignoring that I've already pointed out the inherent flaw with the banking system as to give a specific example to demonstrate how this would still not work. Imagine a hypothetical scenario specific to the Pure Nh tournament, given you used it as an example yourself, in which all unrelated items were removed from the bank chest (though, I do agree someone in edge never would beat a good pure NHer). In such a scenario, while many problems have been solved, it does not fix the gearing system as a whole as it still allows for people to minimise switches and maximise food - the biggest issue of all regarding the current gearing system. On the other hand, in the system I suggested, this would not be an issue as there would be no way in which participants could increase their food count over others since they are forced to use a predefined set-up.

My suggestion would require a minimum of nine custom kits to be created (one per tournament) and an NPC to replace the bank booth to whom participants could talk to, in the case of one kit per tournament, reload the set-up for that tournament after a fight. I appreciate this would require more coding, ultimately this is just a suggestion of what I believe an ideal tournament system would be, as a minimum I'd like to see the items in the bank booths be reduced. On a somewhat unrelated note, I still stand by that the Main tournament is rendered unnecessary by the Dharok one - especially given the majority of participants in it use dharok anyway. As for the last two seemingly random examples, those are again extreme cases and simply go to demonstrate that ultimately combat in this game is based on RNG.

ok i read ur post u got a bit lost in it but basically ur saying even if certain items from premade banks were removed there wud still be the issue of more food over less switches right?

simple idea is to cap the brews to 2 for all tournys wud be faster fights and cap the rocktails for these 3 tournys only hybrid/tribrid/nh it cud be 14 or 15 max that way ppl like me who dont do more than a 3 way will still have the gear in inv but will be unused

[Aelin]

26 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

ok i read ur post u got a bit lost in it but basically ur saying even if certain items from premade banks were removed there wud still be the issue of more food over less switches right?

simple idea is to cap the brews to 2 for all tournys wud be faster fights and cap the rocktails for these 3 tournys only hybrid/tribrid/nh it cud be 14 or 15 max that way ppl like me who dont do more than a 3 way will still have the gear in inv but will be unused

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "u got a bit lost in it", given that it's my own post (unless it was a typo), but I digress. I am indeed saying that removing certain items from the banks would still leave the issue of people taking as few switches as possible to maximise their food count. A demonstration of the major issue that this presents is the fact it would be possible for someone to partake in the Hybrid tournament using max magic bonus gear with no switches and farcasting the entire fight.

If the bank booths were indeed to be kept, capping the maximum brew count to two as well as introducing a cap on the number of rocktails would be a viable strategy; however, it, again, has issues. The first of these is that the brew cap can be abused, for example, in the current system the cap is four but it is possible to take an extra dose brew by drinking one dose of the four in your inventory and then taking another four dose brew from the bank. The second issue is that this would force participants to use brews, else they would be immediately disadvantaged given the rocktail cap would have to be specific to each tournament as the number of switches varies across each. This is why I suggested the predefined set-up solution as, providing multiple are created per tournament, all of these issues are avoided. I do, however, completely agree that, if the system isn't overhauled, introducing a tournament-specific cap for both brews and rocktails would be the simplest and easiest solution (though, imperfect).

Edited September 8, 2016 by Aelin

[24k]

41 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

ok i read ur post u got a bit lost in it but basically ur saying even if certain items from premade banks were removed there wud still be the issue of more food over less switches right?

simple idea is to cap the brews to 2 for all tournys wud be faster fights and cap the rocktails for these 3 tournys only hybrid/tribrid/nh it cud be 14 or 15 max that way ppl like me who dont do more than a 3 way will still have the gear in inv but will be unused

How do you not get this?

Fixing a brew cap would NOT solve this issue. People would still bring 3 way in tribrid or 1/2 way in Pure Nh (example)

and 3 way switching instead of 5/6 takes alot faster and can cause you to not expect or see when your opponents next move is, AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, they have more food? 1-3 rocktails! I'd choose the rocktails over the bonuses tbh.

 

@Aelin Sick suggestion. Have always wanted to make this thread but have not had time for it.  

[Aelin]

5 minutes ago, 24k said:

@Aelin Sick suggestion. Have always wanted to make this thread but have not had time for it.  

Cheers

[Ahmash]

31 minutes ago, Aelin said:

Not sure what you mean by "u got a bit lost in it", given that it's my own post (unless it was a typo), but I digress. I am indeed saying that removing certain items from the banks would still leave the issue of people taking as few switches as possible to maximise their food count. A demonstration of the major issue that this presents is the fact it would be possible for someone to partake in the Hybrid tournament using max magic bonus gear with no switches and farcasting the entire fight.

If the bank booths were indeed to be kept, capping the maximum brew count to two as well as introducing a cap on the number of rocktails would be a viable strategy; however, it, again, has issues. The first of these is that the brew cap can be abused, for example, in the current system the cap is four but it is possible to take an extra dose brew by drinking one dose of the four in your inventory and then taking another four dose brew from the bank. The second issue is that this would force participants to use brews, else they would be immediately disadvantaged given the rocktail cap would have to be specific to each tournament as the number of switches varies across each. This is why I suggested the predefined set-up solution as, providing multiple are created per tournament, all of these issues are avoided. I do, however, completely agree that, if the system isn't overhauled, introducing a tournament-specific cap for both brews and rocktails would be the simplest and easiest solution (though, imperfect).

yh i meant to say i got a bit lost in it cos it was torture reading a post that long forgot half of it by time i finished lol

the first issue can be fixed by having the brew cap to 8 doses max, the 2nd issue makes no sense cos every1 usually pk with 1 or 2 brews so its normal and as i said the rocktail cap wud only be aplied to hybrid, trybrid and nh tournys only

19 minutes ago, 24k said:

How do you not get this?

Fixing a brew cap would NOT solve this issue. People would still bring 3 way in tribrid or 1/2 way in Pure Nh (example)

and 3 way switching instead of 5/6 takes alot faster and can cause you to not expect or see when your opponents next move is, AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, they have more food? 1-3 rocktails! I'd choose the rocktails over the bonuses tbh.

 

@Aelin Sick suggestion. Have always wanted to make this thread but have not had time for it.  

bro wat u on about can u not l2 read??? aswel as the brew cap i said ther shud be a rocktail cap for example 15 so in a hybrid tourny ppl are forced to either hav a 6 way or hav empty inv slots instead

[Aelin]

3 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

the first issue can be fixed by having the brew cap to 8 doses max, the 2nd issue makes no sense cos every1 usually pk with 1 or 2 brews so its normal and as i said the rocktail cap wud only be aplied to hybrid, trybrid and nh tournys only

 

Not sure about the mechanics regarding capping the number of brew does, but how would that solve the abuse issue when the current system also works on a maximum brew dose limit?

The second issue is regarding the four bridding tournaments, while people will almost definitely use brews, they're taken for the sole purpose of rocktail-brewing to get their health back up and will often have brew left at the end of a fight. In a tournament brews are taken simply because they are worth 64 hitpoints for one inventory space, in comparison to rocktails which are only worth 23, and generally not for the intent to be used when rocktail-brewing on low HP. Inexperienced brids may struggle with using brews as a primary food source since they don't understand basic techniques in bridding like brew-blitz-restore.

I understand you said that the rocktail cap would only be applied to the brid tournaments. The reason I suggested a complete overhaul instead of targetting only the brid tournaments is for the sake of consistency and, again, balance. I can't stress enough that it is a tournament meant to show who is the most skilled in a certain PKing style, a result that will never be truly produced with a system that allows for significant variation in set-up.

[24k]

17 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

 

bro wat u on about can u not l2 read??? aswel as the brew cap i said ther shud be a rocktail cap for example 15 so in a hybrid tourny ppl are forced to either hav a 6 way or hav empty inv slots instead

People would still (despite having the extra items they initially refuse to use) just do a 2 or 3 way in tribrid?

Should have a system that does NOT allow you to attack your opponent unless you have (RANDOM NUMBERS; JUST AN EXAMPLE) 8 different items on you that initially represent a specific attack style (range, magic or melee)

 

Items like fury, or helm should represent all three really.

[PK Guy]

Sounds like a Commie tourney TBH. Why force everyone to have equal items, when we already have equal choice? People have different styles. Not fussed about your brid suggestions because it's not my style, I occasionally enter the tournament for a laugh, and the free PKP, nothing more. You can't complain I take more food and less switches, because you could do that too! Not my fault if my tactics work. Ultimately we do whatever it takes to win. But your pure kit is shit, and that's my favorite PK'ing style. The great thing about pures is the plethora of weapon choices at your disposal and yet want a pre-set kit for everyone.

One of the reasons I like RS PK'ing (or just RS in general) is because you have to make actual decisions, or "trade-offs" which can either pay-off or backfire. Eg you can be level 92 with 1 def, 45 def, or even 70 def. But in order to stay at that combat level, compromises need to be made somewhere. Sometimes they work, sometimes not. But your still level 92 so fighting other level 92's is still a fair fight, regardless of how they achieved that combat level. Similarly in the tournament whatever gear your opponent selected - it's STILL a fair fight! You need to use your own judgement based on your experiences in Wilderness Pk'ing, You got to decide which primary weapon, which spec weapon to take, how much food/pots you want. For me this all adds to the fun.

tl;dr   I don't want everyone to look like clones of each other.

[Aelin]

34 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

Sounds like a Commie tourney TBH. Why force everyone to have equal items, when we already have equal choice? People have different styles.

 

 

The fact that the tournaments are currently 'balanced' given that all players have access to the same gear is a non-issue. That is an unrealistic statement because it is based on theory and what has been shown in practice is the tournament isn't fair for all players, despite everyone being able to access the same gear. As I have stated numerous times, this is a tournament and therefore it should adhere to the principle that skill should be the deciding factor in a win or loss. The current system promotes set-ups which maxmise food and not one that is representative of what would be used in a normal PKing scenrio (i.e. what is normally the best set-up), thus tournaments are too often not won by skill.

34 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

Not fussed about your brid suggestions because it's not my style, I occasionally enter the tournament for a laugh, and the free PKP, nothing more.

 

Irrelevant.

34 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

You can't complain I take more food and less switches, because you could do that too! Not my fault if my tactics work. Ultimately we do whatever it takes to win. But your pure kit is shit, and that's my favorite PK'ing style. The great thing about pures is the plethora of weapon choices at your disposal and yet want a pre-set kit for everyone.

 

 

I can complain for the reason I just stated, tournaments should be won by skill and a set-up that is representative of what is commonly used in the wilderness will promote a skill-based win. As for your subjective comment about the presented pure set-up being "shit", please read the post; the set-ups are examples and, especially in the case of the edge tournaments, alternatives would be presented to provide variation. Incidentally, I am actually against any kind of variation since true balance can only be achieved through identical gear set-ups. However, I appreciate that variation is a part of PKing and the tournaments do not need to be balanced to quite that extreme.

34 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

One of the reasons I like RS PK'ing (or just RS in general) is because you have to make actual decisions, or "trade-offs" which can either pay-off or backfire. Eg you can be level 92 with 1 def, 45 def, or even 70 def. But in order to stay at that combat level, compromises need to be made somewhere. Sometimes they work, sometimes not. But your still level 92 so fighting other level 92's is still a fair fight, regardless of how they achieved that combat level. Similarly in the tournament whatever gear your opponent selected - it's STILL a fair fight! You need to use your own judgement based on your experiences in Wilderness Pk'ing, You got to decide which primary weapon, which spec weapon to take, how much food/pots you want. For me this all adds to the fun.

 

3

Most of your points here are irrelevant given that this is a tournament scenario. In the tournaments, everyone has the same account build (oh, and your logic is exceedingly flawed when you effectively said that equal combat level fights are always fair. It is a commonly accepted fact that certain account builds are significantly more powerful than others within certain combat level ranges). The problem with your final point is you somehow again fail to appreciate that this is a tournament and, consequently, it will always be about outlasting. I am simply suggesting changes to balance the system and, in the case of the edge tournaments, attempt to promote KO'ing by giving people even gear (i.e. if you don't attempt to KO someone, you're relying on RNG alone).

34 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

tl;dr   I don't want everyone to look like clones of each other.

You're being an unrealistic idealist.

I don't mean to be rude at all here, I genuinely appreciate the feedback, just a little tired of repeating to everyone to remember it's a tournament :P...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Aelin

[Ahmash]

50 minutes ago, 24k said:

People would still (despite having the extra items they initially refuse to use) just do a 2 or 3 way in tribrid?

Should have a system that does NOT allow you to attack your opponent unless you have (RANDOM NUMBERS; JUST AN EXAMPLE) 8 different items on you that initially represent a specific attack style (range, magic or melee)

 

Items like fury, or helm should represent all three really.

that is a smart idea my a7e a minimum of 6 items wud be a reasonable amount but there will still be an issue cos if wat u suggested was added ppl wud use an auto switcher while they enter on an alt, i have a brilliant script which i will be selling to every

less switches = less skill but better technique thats y wen im at ::brid i make ppl in max sets tab whilst in welfare with a recoil lol

Edited September 8, 2016 by Ahmash

[24k]

16 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

that is a smart idea my a7e a minimum of 6 items wud be a reasonable amount but there will still be an issue cos if wat u suggested was added ppl wud use an auto switcher while they enter on an alt, i have a brilliant script which i will be selling to every

less switches = less skill but better technique thats y wen im at ::brid i make ppl in max sets tab whilst in welfare with a recoil lol

I really hope you're kidding..

Would be NO ISSUES, except for maybe people will get pissed off over missing a switch and it fucks everything up or something idk

nice suggestion regardless

[Ahmash]

45 minutes ago, Aelin said:

The fact that the tournaments are currently 'balanced' given that all players have access to the same gear is a non-issue. That is an unrealistic statement because it is based on theory and what has been shown in practice is the tournament isn't fair for all players, despite everyone being able to access the same gear. As I have stated numerous times, this is a tournament and therefore it should adhere to the principle that skill should be the deciding factor in a win or loss. The current system promotes set-ups which maxmise food and not one that is representative of what would be used in a normal PKing scenrio (i.e. what is normally the best set-up), thus tournaments are too often not won by skill.

Irrelevant.

I can complain for the reason I just stated, tournaments should be won by skill and a set-up that is representative of what is commonly used in the wilderness will promote a skill-based win. As for your subjective comment about the presented pure set-up being "shit", please read the post; the set-ups are examples and, especially in the case of the edge tournaments, alternatives would be presented to provide variation. Incidentally, I am actually against any kind of variation since true balance can only be achieved through identical gear set-ups. However, I appreciate that variation is a part of PKing and the tournaments do not need to be balanced to quite that extreme.

Most of your points here are irrelevant given that this is a tournament scenario. In the tournaments, everyone has the same account build (oh, and your logic is exceedingly flawed when you effectively said that equal combat level fights are always fair. It is a commonly accepted fact that certain account builds are significantly more powerful than others within certain combat level ranges). The problem with your final point is you somehow again fail to appreciate that this is a tournament and, consequently, it will always be about outlasting. I am simply suggesting changes to balance the system and, in the case of the edge tournaments, attempt to promote KO'ing by giving people even gear (i.e. if you don't attempt to KO someone, you're relying on RNG alone).

You're being an unrealistic idealist.

I don't mean to be rude at all here, I genuinely appreciate the feedback, just a little tired of repeating to everyone to remember it's a tournament :P...

in ur pure tourny example u havnt even put a whip in come on man, melee always beats range thats y its rarely used in edgeville unless with void at pure lvl

[Aelin]

19 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

in ur pure tourny example u havnt even put a whip in come on man, melee always beats range thats y its rarely used in edgeville unless with void at pure lvl

 

I didn't put a whip in for the very reason that melee is the most powerful combat style and consequently, yes, a pure with a whip will almost always out DPS a pure with an msb. Additionally, the variation and combos available in pure range fights are much more diverse (i.e. more fun and interesting) and hence my decision to make the pure tournament range-based. Currently, the Pure tournament is quite literally: use max melee bonus gear, spec 4 times with dds immediately so you can spec later in the fight and win by having greater DPS. Of course, a pure melee tournament would still be possible given that I am very much in favour of either the dharok or main tournament being replaced.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Aelin

[Ahmash]

30 minutes ago, Aelin said:

I didn't put a whip in for the very reason that melee is the most powerful combat style and consequently, yes, a pure with a whip will almost always out DPS a pure with an msb. Additionally, the variation and combos available in pure range fights are much more diverse (i.e. more fun and interesting) and hence my decision to make the pure tournament range-based. Currently, the Pure tournament is quite literally: use max melee bonus gear, spec 4 times with dds immediately so you can spec later in the fight and win by having greater DPS. Of course, a pure melee tournament would still be possible given that I am very much in favour of either the dharok or main tournament being replaced.

i think the pure nh tourny shud be replaced by pure void range tourny cos not many nhers on this server

[Aelin]

Just now, Ahmash said:

i think the pure nh tourny shud be replaced by pure void range tourny cos not many nhers on this server

I will try to answer this as objectively as I can, given that I am a pure NHer.

I disagree for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there are already five edge PKing tournaments to four bridding ones and, given bridding is the most skilled form of PKing, I don't see why you would remove a bridding tournament in favour of an edge one. Secondly, pure NHing is literally the only form of pure bridding and the most popular form of NHing alonside max; I don't see why you would have only one of the two.

I'm really hungry right now, so I hope that made sense.

[MNB]

22 minutes ago, Ahmash said:

i think the pure nh tourny shud be replaced by pure void range tourny cos not many nhers on this server

You're ugly.

[PK Guy]

1 hour ago, Aelin said:

The fact that the tournaments are currently 'balanced' given that all players have access to the same gear is a non-issue. That is an unrealistic statement because it is based on theory and what has been shown in practice is the tournament isn't fair for all players, despite everyone being able to access the same gear. As I have stated numerous times, this is a tournament and therefore it should adhere to the principle that skill should be the deciding factor in a win or loss. The current system promotes set-ups which maxmise food and not one that is representative of what would be used in a normal PKing scenrio (i.e. what is normally the best set-up), thus tournaments are too often not won by skill.

SMH non-issue means "not an issue". Therefore why are you making a thread against it, if you are now saying it's NOT even an issue. You keep comparing the tournament to how ordinary PKing is outside the tournament but you are overlooking one crucial detail: tournament fights are forced deathmatches - at ::brid you can take a tab and use it at any time so sure, why not play about with gear more? BUT at tournaments you want to last the longest so taking more food over more switches is a tactic - it might mean my magic might not hit as well due to less bonus, but the extra food balances that. It is a tactical decision, and choosing the right gear is a skill too. The tournament set-up I use (of favoring food) is what I use at Edge Wilderness too. The only difference is I don't safe at Edge because, unlike the tournament, there is nothing to lose from dying at Edge.

1 hour ago, Aelin said:

 

I can complain for the reason I just stated, tournaments should be won by skill and a set-up that is representative of what is commonly used in the wilderness will promote a skill-based win. As for your subjective comment about the presented pure set-up being "shit", please read the post; the set-ups are examples and, especially in the case of the edge tournaments, alternatives would be presented to provide variation. Incidentally, I am actually against any kind of variation since true balance can only be achieved through identical gear set-ups. However, I appreciate that variation is a part of PKing and the tournaments do not need to be balanced to quite that extreme.

 

What if I told you I commonly use 3-way in wildy? By enforcing a 6-way it is not representative of what I use. Clicking a mouse many times is your idea of skill now, when in reality the matches are won through tiny amount of skill and a big chunk of RNG. I know you would like no variation, but you see the problem with this is, players who use an unorthodox PK style will be forced to PK under somebody else's preferred style, which make it unfair also. And if you're going to implement a variety of pre-made kits to select, then why not just let people keep picking their own gear.

 

I don't maybe I will stay out of this. I just thought, when RS released tournament worlds, I loved their idea of giving you a maxed account (with ability to set levels) and a fully spawned bank where you can pick the gear and inventory set-up how you want and just have hours of fun. I thought, that's great why aren't they keeping this world open permanently, or if not why isn't an RSPS doing this? Lots of players use it so it would be a hit. The RPkz tournaments sort of reminded me a lil' of this the way you can choose from the best items from a custom bank and you're trying to ruin it for me 

 

 

[MNB]

@PK Guy What do you think should happen to Pure Nh Tourny?

[Ahmash]

36 minutes ago, Aelin said:

I will try to answer this as objectively as I can, given that I am a pure NHer.

I disagree for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there are already five edge PKing tournaments to four bridding ones and, given bridding is the most skilled form of PKing, I don't see why you would remove a bridding tournament in favour of an edge one. Secondly, pure NHing is literally the only form of pure bridding and the most popular form of NHing alonside max; I don't see why you would have only one of the two.

I'm really hungry right now, so I hope that made sense.

i was jk bro i wud never remove ur precious tourny we all kno ur the #1 edge pure nher

31 minutes ago, MNB said:

You're ugly.

who u r pussy?

[PK Guy]

4 minutes ago, MNB said:

@PK Guy What do you think should happen to Pure Nh Tourny?

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IDK, honestly I got no complaints on how it is ATM. So, I haven't got a suggestion, hence why I didn't make a topic about it. But I do have an objection to the opinions I took from this thread, namely: enforcing the same gear upon everyone, and including a 6-way switch in lieu of additional food.

The reason I don't want to do that isn't because I can't, it's because I know I don't need to. My tactic is to outlast. It is a skill in itself. Do you ever see how shit sports teams manage to beat better ones, it happens a lot. It's embarrassing for the "good" team. Basically, it's all about your tactic. When Aelin stated something along the lines of a tournament should only be won by the most skilled person, 100%, that's not how it happens IRL. Yes for the most part, players like Dr4g0nb0ys0n will win, but it's not 100%, someone shit will pull of a David Vs Goliath story.

MNB, you could probably kick my ass in terms of switches, "baffage", and running circles around me, but if your AGS pulls off a 0 (on my robes :p) and mine does 70+ on your tank, then you just have to accept that the best man doesn't always win! So skill is not the 'be all and end all' of briding.

[desert ship]

1. im against with removing bank booth and adding (1) setup for each tournament/pk style, because there will be people who don't like the X setup that gretar will make.

2. i suggest adding Dmg Taken in the first of fight, not last 100 seconds or w/e.

3. pid should be removed and rng or w/e its already, support.

 

[Joewel]

Ah fuck, my eyes. Can't read them all

[Aelin]

11 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

SMH non-issue means "not an issue". Therefore why are you making a thread against it, if you are now saying it's NOT even an issue. You keep comparing the tournament to how ordinary PKing is outside the tournament but you are overlooking one crucial detail: tournament fights are forced deathmatches - at ::brid you can take a tab and use it at any time so sure, why not play about with gear more? BUT at tournaments you want to last the longest so taking more food over more switches is a tactic - it might mean my magic might not hit as well due to less bonus, but the extra food balances that. It is a tactical decision, and choosing the right gear is a skill too. The tournament set-up I use (of favoring food) is what I use at Edge Wilderness too. The only difference is I don't safe at Edge because, unlike the tournament, there is nothing to lose from dying at Edge.

 

 

I am well aware of what "non-issue" means, I would, however, appreciate it if you actually read the sentence. What I said was a non-issue is the fact that the tournaments are technically currently balanced due to everyone having access to the same gear. No, that is not the issue, instead the issue is with the entire system (I explained it all in the original post). I am comparing the tournaments to PKing in the wilderness in an attempt to make them representative, not to replicate (that is impossible given the deathmatch scenario) - my reasoning for this is, again, in the original post. The tournaments are, indeed, about outlasting, however, the current system allows people to outlast others for the wrong reasons (i.e. not by having higher DPS due to greater skill).

11 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

What if I told you I commonly use 3-way in wildy? By enforcing a 6-way it is not representative of what I use. Clicking a mouse many times is your idea of skill now, when in reality the matches are won through tiny amount of skill and a big chunk of RNG. I know you would like no variation, but you see the problem with this is, players who use an unorthodox PK style will be forced to PK under somebody else's preferred style, which make it unfair also. And if you're going to implement a variety of pre-made kits to select, then why not just let people keep picking their own gear.

 

 

I am not enforcing a 6-way, if you want to 3-way you have the option to simply move the excess gear out of the way and 3-way. Additionally, the suggested set-ups are the minimum one would be expected to take into the wilderness (ignoring the exception of deep wild fights, etc). If you're questioning that switching (encompassing faking, prayer flicking, etc) takes skill, then I don't really know what to say to you. As for the big chunk of RNG, that's true mainly for edge PKing; in the case of bridding switching massively reduces the RNG element, at least on the higher skill levels. 

Someone with an unorthodox PKing style is an extreme case and it is impossible to accommodate all cases.

The reason for the predefined set-ups is to eliminate the inherent flaw of the current system, once again explained in the original post.

12 minutes ago, PK Guy said:

I don't maybe I will stay out of this. I just thought, when RS released tournament worlds, I loved their idea of giving you a maxed account (with ability to set levels) and a fully spawned bank where you can pick the gear and inventory set-up how you want and just have hours of fun. I thought, that's great why aren't they keeping this world open permanently, or if not why isn't an RSPS doing this? Lots of players use it so it would be a hit. The RPkz tournaments sort of reminded me a lil' of this the way you can choose from the best items from a custom bank and you're trying to ruin it for me 

 

 

If you want that, just go play a pure spawn RSPS; the tournaments on RPKZ are not representative of the OSRS tournament worlds.

1 hour ago, desert ship said:

1. im against with removing bank booth and adding (1) setup for each tournament/pk style, because there will be people who don't like the X setup that gretar will make.

 

This is why I recommended that there should be multiple set-ups available from an NPC. Also, you can very easily just rearrange the gear in your inventory if you don't like how it's laid out...

1 hour ago, desert ship said:

2. i suggest adding Dmg Taken in the first of fight, not last 100 seconds or w/e.

I agree the damage counter should be for the whole fight (if it isn't already), though this doesn't solve the major issue at hand.

1 hour ago, desert ship said:

3. pid should be removed and rng or w/e its already, support.

RNG is a fundamental mechanic of PKing?